Hello and welcome to another episode of Heard It Through The Grooveline. My name is Will Bennett and I'm the founder of Grooveline Music Education. I'm here to help you know how to best support the musical education of your child, even if you are not musical yourself. Today I'm joined by Joanna, who's got some really interesting and unique thoughts and perspectives on music education. She is an expert in sound painting and improvisation, which is something really, really interesting. So Joanna, thank you so much for joining us today to talk about this. I'm really looking forward to kind of delving deep and finding out all about it and how we, as musicians or students can actually use some of your advice as well.
So could you please just tell us just to kind of paint a picture, if you will, as to how you started learning music, what your experience of music education was like as a child when you were learning and how that later led to your career, which I understand is a very busy and successful career now traveling around the world.
So I'd be really interested to hear that. Could you perhaps tell us a little bit about that, please? Yeah, sure. First, thank you so much for having me here today. And, yeah, so, music, when I
was a very, we can say, having a violin teacher, having some classes, some music theory like as a hobby. And then, I'm not sure when I decided, I wanted to be a doctor when I was a kid. So, I think around 12, 13 years old, I came to my mom and I said, Mom, I want to be a musician. And I was like, you want to be what?
I thought you wanted to be a doctor. Yeah, but you know what I really like to play music and I was lucky She gave me a lot of support and then I went to a high school. So i'm based and from portugal right now from portugal So we have these schools on high school that are specific for preparing students to be musicians professional musicians You and preparing them to university, and they are kind of the equivalent of the normal school, as we can say.
So yeah, I went to one of these schools, and I keep my classical training going, you know, orchestra, music theory, violin classes string quartets, you, you know, yeah, the normal. And then I made my bachelor, also in classical music. However, I started to, to also have some jazz classes, which was really new for me and totally different.
I mean, I'm coming from this classical world where everything is written down and suddenly the person, the teacher of the jazz combo asked me to improvise. But improvise what? How? Like how? What I'm going to play? What are the chords? And I was panicking and my first jazz gigs were like very interesting. I would get lost on the harmony.
And I was like, how am I supposed to play with others? I mean, the melody was fine, was easy for me to play the melody, just like, I'm used to play Paganini, and Tchaikovsky, and whatever, lots of notes, and on the jazz tunes, normally they are, they are not easy, but they are less notes, so I thought it's easy.
But, and then that was when I started realizing what kind of musician I want to be. Because I love classical music, I really think it's a piece of art completely, and they can kind of transport us to other realities. And, but then I felt like, that was also helping me on my performances in, at the university as a classical musician.
Because, yeah, that was complementing this part of when, you know, you, I felt I was understanding better the compositions, what the composer wanted to say, how he was Trying to pass a feeling or emotion there. And also to be honest, how to kind of when I was forgetting some parts of the piece playing, I would just make the situation be in my favor if I, if I know, if you know what I mean, sometimes my English is a bit tricky.
Yeah, no, I know what you mean. You could improvise your way out of trouble a little bit. Exactly. And so like, somehow probably my violin teacher would be not very happy with me after, but at least the audience wouldn't really notice that's what about you should be. And also I felt the mentality of the classical music world, at least in that university in Portugal.
Yeah. That's in Portugal in general is still very old mentality. And like, I remember I asked my teacher once, I was playing Mozart concerto number five It's like a standard for violin repertoire, especially if you want to try to audition for an orchestra and stuff. And there was a cadenza a cadenza is a part, it's for the people that don't, that don't know, don't know.
It's a part of the piece that in old times people used to improvise in that way. But nowadays, there are, like, someone just wrote one and they are the standard cadenzas every violinist plays on auditions. It's So I was playing at Concerto. Concerto, how do you say that? And I asked my teacher, oh, can I, can I write my caza?
He said, no, because this one is the, is very good. You need to play this one. Especially for the orchestra. It's what everyone plays. And I said, okay, , what should I say? Right? I wanted, at the end, I was getting a great from him. I should somehow make him happy or do my best. And yeah, I started to feel a bit shut shutting down.
At least, I feel I'm also very I like to put a bit of myself in every piece. And I wanted to kinda have not the power to have a bit to play it as I want it. Even though, of course, it's important that the teachers Okay, no, you are not going to play Baroque like as we play Century 20. Right, you need to understand that.
Why we play like that, you need to understand the history about it, that's why it's important that we take really, we pay attention during history classes, which I never all the time, I didn't do all the time, but it's important. And when you learn the basics, then you can play Baroque as you prefer, like you can even dance playing Baroque, whatever, because you wanted to, because it's your concept, but it's very important that the teachers really like, Make you understand, like, the context, but at the same time, like, I was asking to write a cadenza in the classic, classical period style music, right?
So I don't think he could just let me play it, especially because I told him I didn't want to be an orchestra musician. So I can see now why you feel passionately about improvisation. And you've, you know, you've kind of explained in this different situations, how the improvisation can really help as well, even if you weren't meant to be improvising, such as a classical piece, but as a human, we might make a mistake.
And so a bit of improvisation to get us out of trouble is perfect. And then of course, you know, on the jazz side of things, you are actually meant to improvise. So. Obviously there we need to know how to do that So i'm really keen to hear now how you went from there To I guess that's your first introduction and realizing how good and important improvisation is To then discovering this thing called sound painting.
Can you tell us about that? And what what is sound painting? Can you tell us all about it, please?
The easiest
voicing technique that people was, that was created by this New Yorker, Valton, Walter Thompson, in the 70s. And after that he's been exploring this technique and teaching to others, and it's like a, a language. The language has been growing, and, um, How can I say this? Practice, exactly, practice all over the world.
And so I was in high school and doing my classical playing and that wasn't my first year. So I was like learning all the violin stuff and you know, when you really, okay, this is serious now, I need to start practicing more hours per day if I want to be a full time professional musician. And this guy came he was, his name was Tim Steiner.
He's not Portuguese, as you can say. I don't know if he's British or American. I actually should check that. And he came, this alternative musician, coming to work with some people that was, that were interested to that. So, because I was already kind of alternative, as I can say, I, yeah, soundpainting, what's that, let's go.
And we did some performances and we worked with him some soundpainting techniques. It wasn't all soundpainting, as I found out after working with the, the creator, Walton Thompson, last year. But he used a lot of signs and also freedom for the musicians to really create Like he was giving us instructions, but at the same time we had like we could apply the instructions a bit as we also liked and put our creative sides on the the notes and the beats we were doing creating together You And then, yeah, that was really cool, with a big performance in the city, really cool.
And then I went to bachelor, and I forgot about it, because, I didn't forget about it, but like, you know, I was playing this concertos, and like, bachelor, and other topics. And then later yeah, when I finished my bachelor in Portugal, I went to Scotland with my master's degree, in the Royal Conservatoire of Scotland, and that changed everything.
Because again, I was studying classical music, but I was also having some free improvisation Kind of sessions there with some teachers on the school. Very cool and I felt My teachers were really supported on my improvisation things and suddenly I remember oh, I did this thing called sound painting Right, and I started kind of to be more interesting about it And then COVID happened.
Oh, and then I was like, okay. So I was with that on mind, but you know, I was also, sometimes life happens, a pandemic happens, and you have other things on your mind. And finally last year, I don't know how that, ah, exactly. So I was I was also playing in the U. S. some shows. And this guy introduced me to another guy, and he told me, like, Oh, I'm do you want to come to work with these kids at this middle school in San Francisco, near San Francisco?
And I said, oh, why not? And I thought, what should I do with the kids? Improvisation, like, how is, what can I work with them? Since I just have one hour, and I want to make the most of that, because if you have a student, or students that you work with. Regularly with them you can work on, you know, other kind of pieces and works and improvisations But when you have just one hour I wanted to make sure they had really a nice hour and they learned something after one hour that passes very quickly Especially with kids with instruments on their hands all playing together So I thought Why not sound painting because it's really fun And it's something they will like for sure.
So I went there. I I read, read, read, yeah, I read the books of Walter Thompson about soundpainting, and I learned the signs, the basic signs of level 1 and 2. So, it was a success, I really liked them, and I thought it was really fun, and so I started to learn more, to do more workshops of soundpainting with universities, also in San Francisco, and some in Portugal, some music schools as well in Portugal.
So, And last year, I I took lessons with the creator he's offering some one by one private sessions where it's really fascinating about the way he teaches soundpainting and all the language, like how complex is the language right now it started with a hundred symbols and right now it's more than a thousand or even more.
Okay. So, so I guess it's it's almost like I'm imagining it.
So for example, you're in the classroom, you're playing your violin, and then there's children. Watching you play a violin and you teach them different signs literally as if it was like sign language And they hold up using their body different signs or action And that instructs you how to play or so there is no painter That is me in this case And then there is an ensemble or even just one student orchestras
if I don't want to really do a session on painter and the composer at the moment and they You That they have like normally I do something for musicians, even though you can also do with other arts like Dancers Right. Okay. So you're the one giving out the symbols and then the students are interpreting those symbols on their instruments in order to Realize what you're composing using the signs.
Is that correct? Exactly, right. I get you and the same time for example, I can say I need to say When I'm
Who is going to play? Four main elements. Say like that. You have, Who is playing? So I need to say, Who is playing? Right? It's the first thing. Then I say, What are you going to play? And then I can say, How and when. The how, you not always use this. You don't need to use this all the time. But, when. So I say who is playing and I say everyone or I make the sign that means strings or I make the sign that means brass or singers, whatever.
Then I tell them and they don't play. They just, okay. For example, let's pretend you are a pianist. Okay. So you are part of the percussion. I say percussion, or I can even point at you a pianist. You play a long tone and I, I, Just, I don't talk, I just make the sign of long tone, and then I say like, now, I make the sign of now, and you start playing.
And then, I can even say how you play, for example, dynamics, so I make forte, I make the sign that represents forte, and you look at me and you know that sign represents forte, or pianissimo, or whatever, or then I can say, okay brass, and I do the, the sign, play staccato notes, and enter slowly. So I said, who, what, and when you enter, you know, and I understood.
And for example, if I don't like something, I can always make you stop. And there are no mistakes. And you, if you play something that you are not, I didn't sign it, but you, for any reason, you make them not a mistake. I don't want to call it because there are no mistakes. You just play something. I didn't sign it.
You just keep playing. And if I don't like it, I just take you out. I just make you the sign, go out stop playing. You know what I mean? Yes. Okay. This kind of improvisation for me, because I don't really know what the players are going to play. Yeah, I understood. So it's really good for the students who are reacting to instructions and learning how to improvise and learning how to be reactive to a to a conductor.
But then also it's good for the sound paid to themselves, such as yourself, because it in a way helps you compose and get new ideas. And maybe you might stumble across something and you think, wow, that sounded amazing. You might then implement that into like a more formal composition further down the line.
Okay, that sounds really interesting. I like it a lot. So, for people who are listening to this podcast, perhaps they're learning an instrument, or perhaps they're a parent of someone who is learning an instrument, how can they take some of the ideas and concepts behind sound painting and turn it into something actionable that they can actually do this week at home in order to improve on their instrument or improve their musicianship in general?
It can also be a good way to start improvising if you never did that before because i'm kind of
Listen, this podcast can do especially if they are listening this podcast now and they are learning instruments, They can just like write for example some techniques they can do with the instrument for example long notes or they can write staccato notes or they can listen a short melody or Or take two, three, four bars of the piece you are learning right now, and write them, and just try to explore a bit with it.
For example, if you have a melody, for example Na na na na na na na na Okay, this is kind of a scale melody, I don't know the level of the people listening to this podcast, but it can be whatever you are learning. So, na na na na na na na And you can think, okay, let's do more longer notes, or short notes, and kind of play with the melody Na na na, na na na, na na na Change some notes, or, na na na na na na Put some rhythms, like really explore a bit And even if you want to be risky not risky, but like have a challenge, ask your parents, your dad or your mom Okay, now that just you have this A power of my melody.
You just say like short notes or long note or, and you can ask them, you playing your piece and they say like, okay, long note. And you play like, nah, nah. And then your dad or mom or uncle or friend or whatever says, makes a sign of tato da or something like that. I like that idea. I think that could be a good game that like a parent could play with their child.
So I guess if their child has, take something simple, whether it be a scale, for example, the parent can then give them instructions whilst they're playing that scale to help them change the way they're playing the scale which then may help them compose some cool music, but it also gets them used to the introduction to improvisation and also reacting to different things that are going on, because whether you're playing in a band or an orchestra, you need to react to other musicians and work as a team.
So I quite like that idea. I think that's really good. And is there a way, oh, sorry, go on. I would say that's cool because No mistakes. It's also fun for the parents. And you can even, maybe later, experiment things.
For example, things you can just, like, for fun. So, really be creative. There are no rights or wrongs. And when I'm teaching little kids, especially, I teach mainly adults online. But I do have some teenagers and some younger people. And I had once a little girl of six years old And we did really improvisation where I say like, just do whatever.
And sometimes I would make, like, kegels with my violin and percussion. And she would, like, also incorporate things that we classify as a noise. But that can also be a creative way to make compositions and music. And really explore everything you have right now. Because, okay, classical music and written music has already all been done.
Is very high now. It's the time to really explore it all if you want or at least know that you can You don't do it in performance, but know you can do it like as an approach to be creative because creative is very important, I believe my opinion and don't be afraid to make wrong notes and don't be afraid to be creative and really think outside the box Yeah, I like that I like that and I agree with you as well Is there any kind of resources or any way that a parent listening to this could learn some of these basic signs?
I don't know if it's maybe on youtube or is there a website they could visit or anything Do you know where a parent could maybe research a little bit so that they can play these games with their children? Yeah, so there is of course there are videos on youtube issue if you like i'd sound painting performances And the results just checking very quickly There is also the official soundpainting website, so I believe it's www.
soundpainting. com, but you can just write soundpainting on Google and write soundpainting Walter Thompson. And you can find his website of the creator, where he has things. And you can also buy the books of soundpainting level one and two. I mean, that sounds really interesting. I'd never even heard of soundpainting, really. I thought when you first said it, that it was like An actual painting class and maybe they're just listening to music whilst they're painting and that was inspiring their color choice or something I I yeah, but no, but what what now that you've explained it, it really makes a lot of sense and it sounds Because I was at his house why the name and he told me
and he just suggested the name The way you are painting it sounds and you use your hand your body. It's actually very hard Like for it's like almost Our cups Like the signs you can make and you step and you are always on action. So you are painting with your body, the sound, or if it makes sense. Yeah, no, it does make sense.
Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's very interesting. I'm going to check it out. I'm wondering maybe it's something we could include in our class classroom lessons, you know, maybe, especially with the younger children, that could be something they find really fun. So I'm definitely going to research into it as well.
Thank you so much, Joanna, for bringing it to all of our attention. It sounds really interesting. And it's also good to hear, as you said at the start of this podcast, like how that has led to you actually having a successful career and those skills. It's not just a standalone game. It's those skills are actually applicable to real life music situations as well.
So thank you for that. It's been really interesting. If, if people want to find out more, maybe about you or do I know you've got your own music as well, do you wanna just let us know how they can kind of discover that as well in case anyone's interested to hear how this eventually manifests itself into, into music? It's my name.
Yes. I'll put, I'll put it in the description. I'll put the link in the description. Quite name I, on Spotify. It's called Indoor Thoughts. And you can put my name for again. And it's an album for solo violin and loop station and I also sing a bit where I you can hear A bit of my classical background, but also folky background because I studied in scotland.
I learned some tunes nice And even some folk portuguese music and I I write songs. With all the time Improvisation in the middle. So it's also a cool you have like the bay The bass harmony I play on a violin. I do percussion on the violin And then I improvise in the middle of the song, and then I come back with the head of the tune again.
I also am that tiny musician on Instagram, and you can also see my journey there. My, what I've been doing, where I'm traveling. I travel a lot to play in the U. S., in the U. K., in Asia even. Well, thank you so much. I'm going to definitely check that out.
It'll be really interesting to hear your music and how that kind of manifests itself with improvisation. I think it's been really interesting and a helpful conversation today. So thank you so much, Joanna, and I'll speak to you again soon. so much.
Thank you for listening to another episode of Heard It Through The Groove Line, the podcast that helps parents like you best support your children's musical education, even if you are not musical yourself. To find out more, you can follow us on social media, and don't forget to hit like and subscribe.