Today I am joined by Lucy Dunkley and I'm really excited to have a chat with you today, Lucy. We've spoken a little bit online and you've told me about some tremendous success that your children have had with music really, really high achieving. So it's going to be interesting to hear from you, from a parental point of view, how you manage this.
But then also, obviously you are also involved in music education. And in particular, I know you do a bit of work with some deaf musicians through a charity called, Audio visibility. So it's going to be interesting to talk about that as well. So really looking forward to having this chat today. So thank you so much for joining us.
I guess my first question to you, Lucy, is just kind of how did you learn music? What was music education like for you when you first learned music, whether that be as a child or later in life and kind of what journey did that take you on to get to where you are today? We always had a piano in our house.
It was a piano that came from, I think my dad's great aunts from a farmhouse in deepest darkest Yorkshire. So we got piano lessons. And we went, my mom was a teacher, a primary school teacher, and we were given. We couldn't get the best piano teacher so my mom's sort of colleague who played in assemblies taught us piano.
And I think we possibly had the driest most uninteresting piano lessons you could ever have. And I kind of kept piano up because I wanted to sing. So I ended up having singing lessons, had an amazing singing teacher. I did want, I think always wanted to play the cello. And I missed the aptitude test at school.
If you didn't, you weren't there that day, that was it. And then I think when you're allowed to play a woodwind instrument, my parents couldn't afford it. And I guess it was seen as, well, there's a piano. So I had a sort of mixed musical start. But my singing teacher had an amazing choir, so I always sung in choirs.
And I think when I became a parent myself, I was determined that my children could play whatever instrument that I wanted. And, and was really keen that they had an opportunity to explore music in some of the ways that I didn't. That's really, really interesting actually. I have said before on a previous podcast that so many times when you hear someone who is now successful and you ask them how their story started so many times it started with We had a piano at home And it always starts with that and that's kind of the conclusion I drew from that to give us a top tip was All the way back in the first episode was it's about creating that musical environment even if the person is not musical and doesn't have a piano but Creating this environment where music is celebrated and cool and, you know, it's an option.
That's, that's really interesting and great to hear you say that. Thank you, yeah. So, please can you tell us about the, your own children and their success in music? Because I know they've been extremely high achieving and I'm really keen to pick your brains about this. Well, I mean, that journey, I mean, my daughter's journey with music started in the womb.
And I think if you're first time pregnant, and you're, I think you have a little bit more time with your first pregnancy than your others. I played a lot of music to my daughter in the womb. And it was astonishing, actually, she started to recognize music and kick in the same places, during like opera and things like that I was playing, and any music, but she responded to strings in the womb.
So we knew he was going to be a violin player, so that's really what we did. And so I mean, we are lucky that like grandparents and people were musical and so there was this kind of guidance there, but I, people often think you need to be musical to be a musical parent. You don't. Literally playing music to your children, I think, was my first top tip to any parent.
It helps develop intonation, it fillets taste, exposes children. So actually my children's musical journey started in the room. And so we did start lessons very early. So my, my daughter did something, started something called Suzuki technique. So we started when she was four. She got her first violin and she progressed through that.
My son at age two said, I'm playing the cello. And so, which was, yeah, we were like, yes dear, of course you're going to play the cello. And, I mean, obviously we weren't going to discourage him, but he was still saying that at age three. So I started to look for a teacher, thinking they might take him on when he was four or five.
And actually he started cello lessons when he was three, bless him. He had a sixteenth of a cello. And I guess my next tip to parents would be if you, you know, children can start when they're young. Partly it's finding the right teacher. Because I think From my experience as a teacher as a parent and some of the stories I get that right teacher is really important.
Because, I mean, as a, as a teacher, I've certainly had taken on students were the teachers and delightful children I've been told teachers declared them unteachable. And I guess it's just a mismatch of personalities. So my children, yeah, started lessons quite early. And I think their music success actually is about, I think, music is more than just a small hobby.
It can be something that can be a big part of your life and your family's life. And often you find parents don't see anything about, I don't know, committing to a football team or a rugby team and that children every weekend is about those sports matches and and about fitness and kind of understanding everything that's needed to succeed in sport.
Not all parents have the same attitude to music. And I think music is a commitment, it doesn't have to be an onerous commitment. So the first thing I said earlier was about playing music, but actually it's taking time for music and understanding that this is a journey, and it will take time, and your relationship with music and those lessons and how the child will progress is very different.
But so for us, it was firstly making sure there was time for music and sometimes prioritizing music. And so it was finding space for children to practice. Now, again, I was dealing with very small children, so there was no way a three or four year old was going to practice without me. You know, we had instruments.
And I'd also recommend you get advice before buying an instrument. I think, I think many teachers get frustrated if there's like, I don't know, an awful keyboard or a string instrument that's not fit for purpose. Instruments don't necessarily have to be expensive, but the right ones, often the right secondhand ones so getting advice from a musician or from a music teacher is often really important.
So we got some nice instruments for my children, not that, and again, we were able to actually, with early string instruments, I think with the violins, we were able to kind of to buy them, but you would then be able to sell it back to the shop when you upgraded the size. So the right size instrument is also really important.
My son started off with a 16th, which was almost smaller than a guitar, so it could fit on the parcel shelf of the car. We do nostalgically think of that when he's got a great cello now. And so, yeah, we would, I would practice with the children every day. And again, I think practice is one of the hardest things to crack, because I think, I think it takes at least two weeks to establish a good sort of practice timetable.
And you do get certain teachers, I mean, it varies with your teacher, how much they expect to practice, how strict they are with your, child. But I think most teachers do obviously encourage children to practice and it's a really hard thing to do. I mean, I think families these days are often very overwhelmed with juggling jobs, juggling feeding children, you know, getting homework done.
And it's, I think the first thing is sort of cracking that and I think that's a really important piece of time where you can practice. It might be different every day. My son used to practice every morning before school. So you know, we had a very specific routine that once we both kind of showered, dressed, packed, lunches have been made.
There was a window for practice, which grew. So we used to, even when he was quite little, we built to half an hour practice before school every day. And he was quite an early riser, so that fitted with him. And parents who maybe aren't doing like we were doing Suzuki with a small small child so practicing with them was really vital some some students obviously are maybe in a in a situation where they practice independently but that parent being involved so that They're aware of what's been practicing or they're encouraging I think is really really really important.
And so actually keeping an ear out or asking the right questions or getting guidance from the teacher what to listen out for I think is really important and supporting that child that it becomes regular is cleaning your teeth. My daughter used to practice after school. But actually, every day is different, and all our days are different, so it's finding which time on every specific day.
So it might be, might be on a Monday, she was in aftercare at school and got in late, so we'd practice after dinner. But it might be on another day, we'd practice as soon as she got in from school, had a snack, used the loo, washed her hands, it was practice time. And that we'd have days where we could do longer practice, and other days, shorter practice.
And even if, I say, even if you've only got four days. That's better than no practice. It's remarkable. You can play a very short piece or very short scale in, in literally seconds. And so it's very easy to think, Oh, there's no time. And even actually parents often. don't realize the dead time their children have actually.
So you might be having your shower or making a meal or putting some washing on or dealing with some emails, your child might be free. You know, but it's finding that slot. So for us, it was regular practice. And I think also they then also got as soon as they Started that journey. What was great about Suzuki technique was there was very, a lot of opportunities for ensemble playing and groups and weekend workshops, and again, going back to my sports analogy.
It's lovely to be part of a team. It's motivating. It's great to see students that are further, further on than you to see what might happen if you keep playing. And it's also great to then inspire other students who are just starting new progress. So, finding a music community can be really important.
And years ago, my early work practice, I worked for an art center and I, and I set up a group called Strummers where I invited any child with an instrument to come in and I put bands together. It's just nice to play together. And so I guess for parents, if you're looking for a music teacher, finding one that does regular concerts.
or making your own concerts, encouraging your children to play in front of others. My piano teacher never did that. I was petrified at playing the piano in front of anybody. When the piano tuner came twice a year, he'd make me play and I dreaded the piano tuner coming because I'd have to play in front of somebody.
And I'm a very confident person in terms of singing, in terms of the theater, but the piano, I was so That's what I was so nervous about, because I just didn't get. So I think as soon as children can play in front of others and just be used to it, like reading aloud in class. I think it really boosts that confidence I did make sure my children had lots of opportunities to play.
People always go, Oh, your children are so talented. Actually they've worked really hard. And I think any part of successful person has generally worked really hard. Sometimes things come easier to others, whether you've got perfect pitch or particular dexterity, but you don't have, I think for all parts.
So you don't have to be talented or have any prior knowledge of music to do well as a child of music. Children are sponges. And I think, you know, and dedicating to music doesn't necessarily mean you're, you're, you're expecting your child to be a concert pianist, but actually it's understanding all the other benefits from music.
And actually as a practitioner, I work often with lots of children with additional needs and music often helps them in the classroom and helps their life. And so I think you can't underestimate the power of music, but that involves dedication. And you're setting your child up with skills for life, that often children expect things to happen quickly these days.
Music takes time. Learning how to break things into small chunks, to do repetitions, to get better at something, I think is applicable in all skills. And so as a parent, if you want your child to do well, it's giving them the time and the space to do that. And as a parent of two It can be hard at times if your child is going through a particular teenage stroppy period or, or, you know, things are overwhelming or family life is busy, music can be the first thing to go but actually it's probably the best thing to keep.
And, and if a child knows something's important to you that they might play you up at that point, and it's finding those parameters to make. Music should shouldn't be a chore. It should be something that's enriching your life. But there's times we all find we put off things or we don't want to do things because it feels like, oh my gosh, do I have to do that today?
But actually, once you start it, you feel so much better. And actually, if you're very tired, often, bizarrely, music. You know, even though it's concentration, it gives you energy. And especially if you're dealing with young children, it depends, finding their energy. As I said, my son was better at practicing first thing in the mornings.
But again, if I wanted a longer practice, I'd make sure he'd gone to the park and had a run around first. And so it's, it's finding that right rhythm of, of your child. I think there's also quite a lot of expectations to expect children to sit and focus from a very early age. And part of your music practice could be moving around to music and it is stopping and shaking out or it's games.
If you're working with a very young child, making it fun is really important. And Supporting that child and praising that child appropriately. So it's not feeling like a chore, but just something that's nice. I think my children want to realize they got time with me on a one on one when it was music practice time.
So that young children like time with their parents. So my children did progress through their teachers. We never did grades actually. It wasn't important for them to do exams. But they, my daughter. We're thinking about secondary school, but actually in year five, we started to look at different schools and what music they had, because music had become quite a big part of her life.
She'd been playing in orchestras, and she was very young, she was playing with a youth orchestra called Stony Youth Orchestra, and she was the only really young child in the main orchestra. She was about, kind of, I don't know, seven or eight, and was playing with 18 year olds. And they had to make a top for her specially.
And kind of realizing she, she needed to be around like minded peers. And also realizing the juggle of academia, social life, and music for us was becoming tricky. So we did end up looking at specialist schools. So she did audition for Wales Cathedral School and got a DfE place, which is subsidized to study music there.
My son also went on and joined Wells as well. I was quite surprised. I never expected to have two children boarding. It wasn't our plan. But they both did end up at Wells Cathedral School. Mine, and I possibly missed out to say quite earlier, we know we did discover my daughter was deaf as well. And again, people are quite amazed that we have.
this amazing violinist in our family, but she's also deaf. I mean, she's got a unilateral hearing issue, which means she's completely deaf in one ear, but her sound isn't perfect in the other ear. And actually music is a fantastic thing for, for children of all abilities. And just because your child, I think all children are different.
So whatever your, every child have different way, different way to learn and actually music, you can learn in different ways. So I think actually Sophie became really. successful in music, but she had to learn different skills and had to work with people in a different way and had to find ways to compensate.
And I think that's what anybody has to do with, with anything really. So she uses vibrations down the scroll, for example, that help her know she's in pitch and things like that. And is really able to. Use this to her advantage. She's, she's very good on ensemble work because she, she uses visual cues and is really aware of other people around her, which makes her a really sympathetic player.. So that, that leads me on quite nicely, I guess, because I can see now, because your daughter had a hearing issue and became very successful, what may have led you to kind of discover more about the world of deaf musicians, which is something that.
you know, a lot of people might think doesn't even exist because if you think someone's deaf, you might think, why would they do music? But I know you were quite involved in this, and I believe you work with a charity. Could you, or an organization, could you maybe tell us a bit more about this and kind of educate me and the listeners on music for deaf people?
Yeah so I became aware of Ruth Montgomery through the National Deaf Children's Society. So I was looking for opportunities for my daughter, and she ended up entering a competition which was looking for young deaf musicians. And actually, we were slightly surprised by Or maybe not surprised, maybe we're surprised by the level of the other children wasn't advanced as my daughter when you're looking for the best in the country.
And started to realize that musical opportunities, I think, can be really varying for, for a variety of children, for a variety of reasons. And Ruth Montgomery founded a company called Audiovisibility, which I'm actually currently chair of. And Ruth is deaf, currently deaf herself, and a flautist and she went to the Royal Welsh, which is actually where my daughter decided to go.
She turned down the Royal Academy and Guildhall, but realised the Royal Welsh was actually had more understanding, accessibility, and over the changing field of music for young people today, in terms of what jobs are available, seem to have more understanding, more outward looking. And Ruth founded audio visibility because of her experience of music and frustration actually like there's depending on your level of hearing loss, or the path or the resources available in your local authority.
Some children, some children who are profoundly deaf do end up in deaf schools and the music provision in deaf schools can really, really vary. I mean, often deaf schools often have a lot of deaf teachers, which is fantastic, but don't. Therefore, maybe have not had musical experiences themselves and hearing children.
I mean, generally taught that singing when they're younger is great for developing language and all those things that music can bring. And sometimes deaf children don't have those opportunities. But music is about communication and about expression. And so for a whole vast number of people, maybe not to have that is, is, is awful and it can really vary.
But Ruth is extremely talented in her ways to make music accessible, actually. So she looks at music in a way that often musicians don't look. She looks at the visit, the physical side of music. She looks at. Bringing music a life in another way and actually the performances she creates are often make classical music more accessible to any audience, which is absolutely fascinating and her kind of holistic approach.
of visual cues of feeling music through your heart and soul through your body. Her methodology of teaching I think many teachers can learn from. And the thing with deafness is it's a bit like any sort of spectrum where everybody hears and most deaf people have some level of hearing, but which bit of your hearing is affected or which ear or both ears, which sounds you can hear can really vary.
People often are aware of Evelyn Glennie or feeling vibrations through her feet. I mean, music can be felt through vibrations, but I think with a deaf child, you have to really look at that individual and think about the best way for them to learn. And I do think with any child approaching music, it's about the right teacher who understands how that child learns.
There's not many times in a young child's person's life when you have a one on one. And you have that person you see that person every week, maybe for half an hour or 20 minutes or even 45 minutes depending on your lesson. So actually having somebody can really gear that lesson for you and understand how you learn and how you communicate is vital for your progress.
So I think any parent listening to this, it's, it's, if you're thinking about music lessons for your child. Do you think about it's a two way process and finding the right person to work with your child and to think about you know, consult, consultation lessons are quite, quite common. Or even if your lessons are at school, make, making sure that's a good match and you know what's going on and that they understand your child and your child is progressing and feels comfortable with that teacher is really, really important.
Yeah, that's, that's fantastic. You've given about a hundred brilliant pieces of advice and top tips there , which is you know, just so fantastic to hear you say some of the things that you've said both if they're things that I have already said, it's great to hear you agree with things that I've said previously.
So it kind of, you know, consolidate that, but also you said a lot of things that I didn't even think about or wasn't even aware of. So I'm sure. People who are listening are going to take so much away from this and all the, all the advice and things that you've given there. So thank you so much.
So in terms of the, the organization, Audio Visibility, if people who are listening want to find out more about this, how can they do that? And the second part of my question is, once they found out a little bit more, could you perhaps Even if their child isn't deaf, obviously, if their child is deaf, they're definitely going to want to check this out.
But if their child isn't deaf, what could they still learn that they could apply to their child's musical education? So you can find audio visibility on, you know, on Facebook and on Instagram, various social medias. Just Google us, you will find us. And in terms of, again, if you are Anyone there with a music teacher with who sometimes we develop hearing loss, we're getting better at looking after our ears as musicians.
But again, audio visibility works with people who are deaf with a big D or a little d, or with hearing loss or hard of hearing. And again, committed to We're committed to kind of find the next generation of teachers who are with to work with children, but also to work with children. And so Ken maybe even if you're a teacher listening and if you've got children in any of the groups you're working with, and need support to support a deaf child and do please reach out.
Audio visitors, all kinds of different projects, and often you can see some things on our web pages of. Of recordings of things, I guess we can help inspire your child and look at other ways to bring classical music alive. Actually, we worked with BT Sport recently. On a, a sign up there was an a z of football using BSL, which had a soundtrack that audio visibly created.
And we had a deaf footballer who was banging her football, kind of bouncing the football in time, in, in rhythm to the music and had deaf musicians. Performing. And there was a real visual side of that. And so I think if your child is a visual learner, I think some of the resources we will be creating resources soon which will be coming available for, for younger children.
And I think sometimes again, if you're a parent of a young child and sometimes you, you want to do things with your children. So I think some of our resources are often really good for early years. And. Often visualing visualizing and physicalization of learning can be really helpful for all children.
And I think Ruth is often very amazing how she breaks things down to make things very accessible and thinking of things in another way, think about how to make things simple. I'm thinking of. The building blocks can be, can be really useful for any teaching. So I think if anyone, I think just have a look at the webpage and reach out if there's anything of interest.
We'd love to hear from people. Thank you. It sounds really amazing. A really fantastic organization and initiative. Thank you so much, Lucy, for coming on today. It's been. Amazing to talk to you. And honestly, so much great information in this. You may even want to listen to this two or three times.
There's so many good top tips in there. Thank you so much for joining us today and for helping educate myself and also the people listening today as well. Thanks very much. Lovely to talk to you. Lucy.
Thank you for listening to another episode of Heard It Through The Groove Line, the podcast that helps parents like you best support your children's musical education, even if you are not musical yourself. To find out more you can follow us on social media and don't forget to hit like and subscribe.