Today I am with Amanda Bond from Sound Mind and I'm really excited about today's episode. We're going to be talking about music performance anxiety, confidence, and how parents in particular can help support their children. So this is going to be a really good one. Anyone listening, make sure you stick around for this all the way to the end.
It's going to be a really great episode. So, hello Amanda, how are you doing today? I'm good, thanks Will, it's really nice to chat with you. Likewise, I'm looking forward to this one actually. Let's jump straight into it. How are you involved in music education? So I have been a music teacher for over 20 years.
I've taught sixth form students, A level music, performing arts, music technology, and I was head of music for quite a while. I then left there to do more work with younger children and more performance based. I was a peripatetic and I still am a peripatetic music teacher. I specialize in vocal and woodwind, and I've taught lots of children of different ages for many years now.
When I first started teaching at Sixth Form College, my naïve 20ish somewhere, teacher thought, oh, this is really a problem that our older teenagers have got performance anxiety and it's really stopping them from their best performance outcomes and their best performance grades. And I thought, you know, this is a real issue that I want to work on.
I spent a lot of time with those teenagers working on it. And as I left the 16 to 18 year old group, I realized that this was not just a problem for all the teenagers. This was a problem for children that I was teaching from as young as four, which was, you know, tricky for them to, as a teacher, for me to see them be anxious about the performance at such a young age.
This then led me to do a master's in psychology where I wrote a paper on teachers perspectives of music performance anxiety in children. And learned lots of other things about it. And now I'm kind of on a mission to tell the rest of the UK what I know about this so that we can help as teachers and parents and as students and children knowing their own anxiety conditions and what their scale might be so that they can acknowledge that this is part of being a performer and that we need to manage it and talk about it.
Brilliant. So, the big question is, what is music performance anxiety? So, it is Not just Stage Fright, it is something that's different from Stage Fright, as in it is a longer lasting. I would say that Stage Fright is a phenomenon that's a, an acute version of Music Performance Anxiety that's really situational.
It is just before that big performance, that exam, that gig, where You know, you get the, the tummy feels and the adrenaline, but music performance anxiety is more than that. And I do have for you a proper definition from Penny, 2011. So music performance anxiety, according to her and the official definition is the experience of marked and persistence.
anxious apprehension related to musical performance that has arisen through underlying biological and or psychological vulnerabilities and or specific anxiety conditioning experiences. So that's quite a lot. So basically it says that it's not just in the moment. It's marked and persistent. So it's apprehension.
So it's lots of worrying thoughts or things that might affect behavior, feeling nervous physical symptoms before. for quite a long time before a performance, not just before a performance. And also here that performance is not related to performance on a stage with an audience, performance is just the doing, is the playing.
So this is something that affects, you know, 80 percent of adults and studies have shown that children feel it the same as adults do. There isn't like a, you know, like a kid's version of music performance anxiety. They do feel the same. So As adults, when we've had this anxiety feeling and there was also a clip of Pavarotti who said, I wouldn't wish this feeling on my worst enemy.
And that's what we've got to realize as parents and teachers that to make music for some children is, is difficult. It's a real stretch for them. They're really challenging just to do the music making. So we need to be aware that for some children, that's, that's a big challenge on its own is to overcome those nerves, to get up just to perform in a lesson.
in a class situation in front of another student in a group lesson, those things can all affect some children. Yeah, it's important to watch out that it is overall that it affects and not just on a stage. Thank you for that. So I'm thinking about when I was younger and I would be performing for the first time, I guess when the first time when I got a guitar and you have one lesson, it's like, Oh, my nan and granddad are coming around.
Let's show them what I've learned. That would be at that point in my life, my biggest ever performance. And I think. Always your biggest ever performance is kind of nerve wracking which obviously at the time is just two people And then maybe you play at the open mic in front of 20 people So now you're not scared to play in front of two because you've noted you've known You know, you've played in front of 20, but then if you have to play in front of the school assembly and it's 200 people, you're scared again.
But then 20 people seems easy in comparison. It goes up like that until, you know, as large as it can go. Really, you know, you play in front of 10, 000 people or whatever. Eventually, if you, you know. become very successful. And I've always thought that for me, my own personal experience, as soon as I've played in a certain scenario, everything below that scenario is kind of fine now.
And that kind of did work. But and then my final exam at university. There was probably only 50 people there, but I knew that every single one of them was a really good professional level guitarist. And that was kind of nerve wracking in a different way. I'd played in front of 10, 000 people before and wasn't nervous in the slightest.
But I was nervous for that because those 50 people, I knew that they knew if that makes sense. So. I guess my question is, would you describe that as kind of general nervousness, or do you, or would you kind of class that as MPA, and how does that kind of present itself differently from normal nervousness?
Yeah, I would say that that would be related to MPA. It's different because our perceptions change on sort of who the audience is. I know that I would rather perform to lots and lots of strangers than to a room full of people that I knew. It might be smaller. So it is about our perception of the audience.
And, and this is something that is important for teachers and for parents to work on that, you know, the audience are there to support you. When you're in a situation where the audience is there to mark you and it's an exam situation we've got like kind of life important situation added to your performance now, which then can be a tipping point of that we were doing okay but now if I start to think, if I mess this up today.
That might have some serious consequences that then can be a tipping point to be from I can manage my anxiety and use it for good in my performance and bring that energy to actually my thought patterns and making that energy be used in a different way, in a more negative way, because I've got that extra life event important going on.
Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think, I guess it's understandable. The more important something has, the more nervous you may get about it or anxious about it. But I think that's a good point you made about the perception of the crowd. So I guess if someone is suffering from music performance anxiety, what kind of strategies could they do maybe, you know, to do with their perception of the crowd or something like that?
What could they do to manage it and harness the power of that energy? So what happens when children and adults get music performance anxiety is their musical self efficacy, which is their belief in their musical ability is affected negatively. So this is about perception of ability. It's not about actual ability.
Music performance anxiety affects people who are beginners, who have been playing for years, who are professionals, who are amazing, who are not very good. Everybody can be affected by it and I think that a lot of the concern that comes from children in particular is that they feel that they are anxious because they are not very good.
So, the reason I feel anxious when I'm playing is because I'm not very good, really. Which is a misconception, that's an unhelpful thought pattern. That is incorrect. People who are, you know, Barbara Streisand, Pavarotti lots of really famous people, really suffered quite badly with performance nerves, performance anxiety.
So, it's not about how good you are. So, it's about making sure and sometimes being explicitly clear with the children that You don't feel nervous because you're not good. That's not why you feel nervous. You feel nervous because you don't believe you're not any good. So you might be, we've all met musicians who are absolutely mind blown amazing.
And you speak to them and they go, Oh, no, that wasn't very good. Oh, I, you know, I don't think I did a good job. And you see their self efficacies is lower than their ability. They don't. They don't see how good they are. And we've all taught children that make one mistake, and because one mistake makes everything terrible, we do this thing called catastrophizing, that one little error in a piece means that all of it was awful.
That's not the reality. Humans have a negative bias, and children and teenagers even more so really have a negative bias. So it's important to help children focus on the positive, to see what they can do. And music is a skill where children especially can progress really quickly in their ability. They might remember how they were six months ago in their ability, but actually they know a lot more now.
So highlighting progress is really good. Because we're, we know from ourselves, it's hard to see, isn't it, where the progress is. We're very good at pointing out to ourselves all the bad bits, but sometimes we need someone to highlight and say, look at this, you can sing these notes now, you can hold a note for so many lengths.
Let's try and sing a song that we started, that we did a year ago, and it was really hard, and you told me you couldn't do it, let's do that now. Oh, look how easy it is. So sometimes just reinforcing the knowledge that they know, and the skills they've learned, can be really. easy and efficient way to helping them be more confident and therefore less anxious.
Communication about music performance anxiety, you know, it's normal. It's suffered by lots of people. How do you feel, how do you feel when you perform today? Can you tell me out of one out of 10, 10, would you be, you were really nervous? One was no nerves at all. Let's talk about it. How do you know that you were nervous?
What, what tells you that you're nervous? What do you think? Also the, sometimes it's the feelings, it's the adrenaline that make people think they must be nervous or they must have anxiety, but actually. It can be perceived as excitement, as adrenaline, as energy, as wanting to perform. So it's about changing those mindsets around the feelings that can come with anxiety that do make people uncomfortable.
You know, the idea that we feel anxious and it can make us feel quite horrible physically, but it's okay and it will go away. And actually We need it to do a good performance and we can then harness it and make sure that that is excitement. I feel like this because I want to go do, I want to show people what I've learned, I want to go and do my best instead of, oh this is awful, I'm not going to do very well because I feel like this.
And would you say, because I'm thinking about now last year when we did a big performance and obviously lots of kids were nervous, but there was a couple of kids who were really upset to be performing and crying and you kind of have to strike the balance and think at what point is this going to be beneficial for them?
I, in general, would say no matter how nervous you feel. Doing it is always the best option. Apart from in kind of extreme circumstances where the anxiety of having to do it is so damaging that it's actually healthier that we just don't do it. But I would say that's very rare. I'd say 99 percent of cases whatever.
anxiety or nervousness you're feeling, you're going to be better off having done it and gone through that. Would you agree with that? And would you agree with that in the case of, you know, music performance anxiety rather than just, you know, common stage fright? I, I think, I agree with you, but like I said, you've got to be careful.
There are some children who might have other comorbidities, other anxiety factors. So if someone has generalized anxiety and they're already in a state of high anxiety and then they do a performance, we can see those children who Apps, it's, it's causing them too much anxiety in that situation that they are unable to perform.
And then that's a situation where you need to speak to them and say, is this a good idea? And we, nobody wants to make children do something when we can see it's really, might be hurting them, as you agree. However, You know, feel the fear and do it anyway. I think he's a good, if we can acknowledge that the feelings that we have, although it's uncomfortable, it's going to go away, it's not harmful.
It's not unnatural. It's, it is normal. We're all maybe feeling it a little bit and that's okay. I think the children that get the most anxious in these situations are the children who think. And it's the children who don't realize that this feeling, although it's uncomfortable, is not going to hurt them.
You've got to think that when it becomes Those children that are really, really struggling, their fight, flight, or freeze has kicked in. And that's what's happening there, is that their body sees this anxiety as a threat to them. They see the performance as a threat. So that's why their body has gone into, you know, I'm being chased by a saber toothed tiger kind of situation.
So that's what, if we can try to manage that and we can say to the children, you know, like think about how you were feeling there, but we're going to work on this. Sometimes it might be a good place for those that they felt so anxious and they really felt it acutely that we can say, right, this is how it was, but we can work on this.
We can make it better so that we can manage this and you feel differently. And it's about adjusting. Thought processes and the thinking, the thoughts that we have around the performance anxiety and around performance, seeing things as a challenge. If we have a performance and we see it as a threat, we think things like, before we go on the stage, unhelpful thoughts such as, if I make a mistake, everyone will see.
If I make a mistake, everyone will know. One mistake makes me a bad performer. If this performance is not perfect, I've not done a good job. Those things make it a threat. What we want to think about is, I've worked hard for this performance. I want to go out there and show people what I can do. Regardless of mistakes, I'm going to try my best.
Those are the things that we want to be instilling in our children. That a challenge feels uncomfortable, but it's okay. That's why it's a challenge. If it was a challenge that didn't have any difficulty about it, it therefore would not be a challenge. There'd be no benefit to doing it in any way. Exactly.
Yeah, I do agree with that for sure. There, I guess there's some obvious symptoms, if you like, as to how we could spot if someone is feeling this way. Obviously, in an extreme example, if someone's having a panic attack, they're very much struggling with this. And that's the kind of point where maybe it's doing more harm than good, you know, and the AD's actually causing them physical kind of pain there.
You know, whereas there's kind of, you know, you might be a bit sweaty, you might be a bit shaky, maybe your voice trembles a little bit. That's all very normal. Are there some other symptoms that as teachers or parents we could look out for that our children are maybe feeling a little bit anxious or nervous that are perhaps less obvious that we could you know, keep our eye out for?
Yeah, it is a difficult thing to spy is anxiety because from experience as a younger person I know that those that have suffered with anxiety a lot can become very good at hiding it from others and just feeling it internally. But MPA affects their somatic, emotional and cognitive domains. So basically, somatic is physical.
So those things would be shaking, increased heart rate, shortness of breath, digestive distress, we'll just say as a broad bracket. But also things like missing opportunities. You know, those children who might not have their form in on time for the exam. where they start to sort of avoid or procrastinate or putting off performances.
These behaviors can be pointers that actually a child is anxious about their performance. Because it affects their cognitive domains. We can see sometimes, I know that I've had children that I've played in a lesson with me, or sung in a lesson with me, and done a great job, and then as soon as there's another person, or a different situation, or sometimes a change of room, where just the same person can make a difference, that you can see things like technical errors, mistakes, memory loss you know, sort of not playing technically as they would do, sort of shaking hands, that it can be, affect performance as well.
Also, because it affects our emotional range, we can have, you know, outbursts. Some children can become cross at themselves or at others because they've made a mistake, become very frustrated. Or, obviously, perhaps some children might cry and things that are more obvious, but they might not realise why they're cross.
This might come out in different aspects in life sometimes as well, so They might have done badly in a music lesson or feel they've done badly, perceive they've done badly in a music lesson, and then go out into lunch and be cross with their friend. So it's, it's difficult to see that it might sort of be elsewhere, that the behavior comes out from the anxiety and somewhere else other than the musical situation.
So yeah, there's lots of Watching for children that, you know, if they don't want to practice at home as a parent, it might be worth asking them why. Why don't they want to practice at home? And maybe not assuming that they will be anxious, but asking them, is it because you're nervous at playing at home?
Do you wonder what we might think about your playing? Do you feel your playing has to be really good at home for us to hear it? And challenging those beliefs that children might have that are incorrect. And say, I expect you to make mistakes at home when you practice, that's fine. That's what I would expect to hear through a wall.
And, you know, us as parents just want you to be happy as a musician, and to play your instrument and enjoy your playing. And, you know, things just being clear communication about expectations can really help. I think that last point is really important, a really good point there, because I do think if you don't feel comfortable, and one of the things I've talked about in previous podcasts is kind of creating a good environment in which they can practice, you know, it's about feeling comfortable.
And again, how you perceive the audience, because if you think everyone in the house is listening to me, waiting for me to make a mistake, then they're going to make a comment around the dinner table. Maybe your older brother's trying to be funny, but actually it's quite hurtful or something, you know, that can really affect a child if you're listening Charlie, that wasn't a specific thing, by the way But you know, but yeah, I think that could happen I had it with my neighbor once I was learning saxophone This was only like a few years ago.
I just thought saxophone. I'll give it a little go I've you know, I've played guitar all my life and the next door neighbor was she wasn't a nice person anyway But she was like, oh Who was that teaching teaching saxophone? I was like, oh, it's just me. I wasn't teaching. I'm just practicing, you know, I've never played it before really.
She's like, oh yeah, I thought so. I was hoping you wouldn't be teaching, like, sounding like that. And I was just like, ugh, that's such a, you know, crappy comment to make. But actually, it did kind of, to be honest, it did affect me because I didn't want to practice after that. Because I was like, I didn't, it wasn't so much that I care what she thinks.
It was just like, I didn't realize that everyone else could hear me. And now I feel very self conscious and I was kind of like, oh, I don't really want to, because I know I'm not very good, because I know about music, and I can hear that I'm not very good, but it's because I've only just started the instrument kind of thing.
Anyway, bringing it back to a more generic point, I think You know, it's really important if children are not practicing at home that much to do exactly what you just said and ask them why, because it could be that they don't feel comfortable or that they think that they need to be perfect at all times.
And so just simply making that comment, you know, we expect you to make mistakes. That's what we want to hear. Because that's the only way you're going to get better and, you know, anyone who's better, it's a sign that they've made more mistakes than you. That's the only reason they're better than you. That, that kind of conversation is so valuable.
So thank you for bringing that point up. I think that's going to be a great point. So I guess that you've already kind of given one or two good top tips there. But are there any other top tips you could share for either teachers or parents, any kind of adult role model? Who is going to be, you know, interacting with a child music student as to how they could help regarding this topic.
Children have, well, all musicians have a musical community, whether they like it or not. The community might just be one if it's sort of someone who doesn't have lessons and just plays a piano at home or something. However, for most children in the situation we're talking about, they have at least themselves and a music teacher.
Parents also become part of that musical community and it's important that they view themselves as part of this musical community that the child has as a musical support system. The bigger the musical community can be, the better. If your child can go and play in a youth ensemble. I know that most music services and music hubs have bands and orchestras that children can join.
It's a wonderful experience for them to build their musical community and see other people of a similar age and standard making music as well, so getting them involved in those things. But as a parent being part of this musical community, You have to see the child, especially if you're an adult who has said to your child, I don't know anything about music.
I want you to do music. That's great. I love this, that you're doing the music. I'm not musical. I'm not musical. I'm not musical. And then that child starts to have lessons and experience and tuition in music. And a parent sometimes can try to give advice or maybe be a bit overbearing in terms of help for the child after they've expressed to the child that they are don't know about music.
I think it's important that in some ways we, regard as a parent that claims to be non musical, we regard the child as the expert, ask them questions. Why are you playing it like that? Oh, that's good. I can see this. Be involved, but without kind of telling too much, because if you've said you're not an expert, you're not a musician, I know nothing about this, but then you keep telling your child that you know more than them, that can affect their self efficacy and their music making.
So it's important that we. nurture their self efficacy and their confidence. Children need to have also some personal autonomy, children that are less anxious in, in life, in all sorts of learning situations and relationships and all sorts of things going forward into adulthood is having personal autonomy.
So although. That seems really lovely. I know that parents, you know, have busy times and need to have control over their children. Absolutely. So if you say to a child, you can choose when you practice, and they say, I would like to practice for three minutes every other month, that obviously is not okay, but letting them have choices around their practice so that they feel that they have some control over their own music making and their own music journey.
So perhaps we could say, you can choose to practice on a Monday or a Tuesday. Which one would be better? Would you like to practice after school or would you like to practice after dinner? Give them some options and let them choose from sensible options. Also things about what music that they might play.
Some children like to choose more pieces than others. And some children are always happy for teachers to just give them their pieces. I think it's important that children go and listen to music that they like and find music they like and come to a lesson and say, I love this, I want to do this. Now, sometimes it might be too tricky for where they are and we can say, right, definitely, but not now.
Or, we can find a, an amended or a shortened version or just say, we're just going to sing the chorus from this song, etc. But letting children have their own choices and their own autonomy about their music making is a really good confidence builder for them to be able to feel in charge of doing those things.
So that's kind of support, but from a distance, so that they are still feeling control of their musical journey. Yeah, I agree completely with a lot of the points there. I think the, the one you were saying about the, the, you know, the parent who's self proclaimed non musical, so kind of immediately telling their child that they don't know anything about it what I found and kind of the reason we did this podcast, I created this podcast, was because they would then say, I don't know about music, therefore I can't help you, you're on your own, kind of thing.
Whereas on the other hand, you were talking about parents being too overbearing if they've kind of undermined their own abilities. And now they're trying to give too much advice. The child's going to think, wait a minute. You said you don't know anything. So I guess the, what we want, what we're both saying is that the middle ground is kind of where we're looking for.
And if you're not, you know, nothing about music, firstly, you know, one thing that I've said before is if you can educate yourself, some basics, that's going to help, but a lot of the support and the advice that you've given there, they don't need to be musical for. So, you know, those conversations that you can have, those environments you can create, you know, that that's kind of the big point of this, this whole podcast, I keep banging on about episode after episode is basically ways that parents can help without needing to be virtuosic on an instrument if they can play a bit of music that can help.
You know, and if they know a few basic things that can help but that's, that's what I really like. And I really also liked the point about the child choosing their piece. That definitely is always the best. If a child chooses a piece, I really love this song. I really want to learn it. Then you teach it them.
They practice loads. I remember I didn't practice for like maybe the first two or three years, you know, practice twice a week or whatever just to kind of do just enough not to get told off in the lesson kind of thing until we did Sweet Child of Mine and I was like yeah I love this and I just all of a sudden, you know, got up before school every day and practiced it and after school practiced it and you know, within a week played it really well.
Well, you know, by that, by an eight year old standard. You know, and that was kind of like the, the clicking point, if you like, where the penny dropped, if you know, and I've realized, oh, practice does help, but it's because it was a piece that I wanted to do and had that kind of autonomy. So it's a really good point.
And if parents are listening to this, you know, encourage your children to listen to lots of music and say, wouldn't you like to learn that? Why don't you ask your teacher, if you can learn that, you know, that can be. Something good as well, because maybe they're not, they don't have the confidence to actually ask a teacher instead of doing the lesson you say, please can we do the lesson I say?
And obviously that might feel a bit strange, but it's perfect. Like we're happy to hear it as teachers. So if you're a parent listening to it, please encourage them to do it. That'd be awesome. Amanda, it's been, we've got so much, so I'm gonna have to listen back to this a few times and make notes. I mean, you've said so many amazing things that are really helpful and I'm sure, sure.
It'll be very helpful for the parents as well. And just shedding a light as well, you know, a bit of awareness around, you know, music performance, anxiety is always great as well. So thank you so much for your time today and for all the advice you've given to me and to the parents, you know, it's helpful for all of us.
So thank you so much for that. If, if people. Are interested in kind of finding out more about this topic or about yourself and the work you do? What could they do to, to kind of connect with you? So the, I can be found on LinkedIn I'm Amanda Bond on LinkedIn also on Facebook as Sound Mind and Instagram as sound.
Do underscore mind because Sound Mind was already stolen. , I'm just in the process of setting up a website and I currently offer. Teacher, in house teacher training sessions. I've worked with East Riding Music Hub earlier this month, which was really great to work with some teachers. And I offer student sessions for students sort of 16 and above to do workshops to, for their more personal experience, obviously of music performance anxiety.
I also offer online one on one coaching sessions with musicians and, you know, teenagers that might still be suffering and need a little bit of help with that. Just about changing mindsets. And I'm hoping to move forward and just try to get the, get the word out to lots of people as to how to help address this, to stop it from affecting our children's music making and helping them be not just better performers, but happy performers.
Music is something that can help with mental health, it can help us feel better. Music is wonderful. And I've really want this barrier of music performance anxiety to be challenged so that more people can access what is wonderful about music making. Brilliant. Thank you so much, Amanda. I hope lots of people listening do connect with you.
And I'll put your Instagram on our Instagram as well. So anyone listening, who follows us can, can find you as well. Cheers. I'll speak to you again soon. Thank you, Amanda. Bye bye.
Thank you for listening to another episode of Heard It Through The Groove Line, the podcast that helps parents like you best support your children's musical education, even if you are not musical yourself. To find out more you can follow us on social media and don't forget to hit like and subscribe.