S1Ep5: Blended Learning & Gamification With Pete Roth of Roth Academy

In this episode of "Heard It Through The Grooveline,"  Will Bennett, founder of Grooveline Music Education, interviews Pete Roth, a musician, educator and founder of Roth Academy. They discuss the evolution and benefits of blended and flipped learning approaches in music education, focusing on the importance of making the learning process fun and relevant for children. Pete also explains the importance of understanding that every child has a different learning pace and preferences. The conversation also explores the downside of pushing children too hard toward numerical achievements rather than fostering a genuine love for music. The podcast ends with Roth sharing about the new focus of Roth Academy on creating content targeting early learning years.

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Transcript

Hello and welcome to another episode of Heard It Through The Grooveline. My name is Will Bennett and I'm the founder of Grooveline Music Education. I'm here to help you know how to best support the musical education of your child, even if you are not musical yourself.  At Grooveline, when the lesson ends, the learning doesn't stop.

And so as part of our wraparound approach to music education, this episode I will be interviewing Pete Roth of Roth Academy. 

  Hi Will, thanks for having me on this. So, my name is Pete Roth,  and I am a musician first and foremost, and I became an educator about 15, 20 years ago, and worked my way through higher education first. 

And recently, my company, Roth Academy, has become a content creator for early learning years and for Key Stages 1 and Key Stages 2 for a new, more blended and flip learning approach for classroom teaching and for one to one tuitions for music service providers.  That's excellent. I'm glad you said a key word there, because could you please explain for anyone listening at home what you mean by flip learning or blended approach to learning? 

So, flip learning is basically when you first watch the content of a lesson  and then you discuss that content in class or in a group setting or maybe in a workshop. So, the student has a preconception about the technical terms, about some technical ability about maybe the music or sound before they step into the classroom.

So, not all the learning starts. At the moment the teacher decides to start it, and it also doesn't always have to happen at the pace the teacher decides, that's the main advantages. So a student can look a week beforehand, , into what's coming up, and then they can start having questions, they can start doing their own research, they can become more self sufficient,  and in places where they feel  They naturally lack a little bit in speed, maybe they can make this up through spending more time on it over a longer period of time so they don't feel in the classroom that they're put on the spot.

That's the advantage of flip learning. While the blended learning approach, I think, is what students in schools do now anyway. And it's just simply the matter of that we have the ability to have online support  with our natural, our normal teaching our in class teaching and so you can have extra  content from other sources that can be filtered in.

You can have audio and video files which you can re watch. So you've seen it in the classroom and you kind of say, hey, have another look and see if you find this particular information in there this time. Or when you see it again, maybe you have now a different view, now we discussed it. You can have all of those things and that's the blended learning approach.

As opposed to traditional, where the student has to take notes. And very often, if the student was anything like me while you're taking notes, you might not be able to then listen to the next sentence. You can start developing gaps. And actually the the teaching in itself can become or a lesson can become quite a stressful environment if you really, really want to take everything in. Yeah, I've definitely been in a few of those situations myself. When you're in a classroom and you're trying to listen to the teacher, you're writing notes,  before you know it, you've moved on and you've missed the next bit.

It's really tricky, so blended learning is great. So, how do you see it, and based on your own experience, you learned guitar before I did?  How that has changed. So what was it like when you first used to learn music when you were younger compared to how you see the state of things in 2023?  Okay. So when I started learning, it was a very  non technical approach.

It's, you had a friend that showed you a piece of music. I was lucky to grow up in a musical family. So I had my grandparents, they would play bows and sing bows, there were instruments all over the house. My, my dad was a very able hobby musician.  And he at one point had aspirations to be a professional player before he chose a different career.

And so there was a lot of support, there was a lot of music around. And that was the key for me. But there was no structure to it.  That was, those days, even in music lessons, I don't think  people thought about the wider implications and what it does  to students  when they form as a whole, rather than forming, you know, we often look at each individual subject as its own entity.

It's bracketed off left and right. And once you leave that bracket, you then enter a new bracket, so now you go do physical education. Now you do arts. Now you do English, now you do math, and all of them, they are their own brackets.  And even though I believe the teachers and the educators understand the connections and understand the importance of the whole student to be developed, I don't think the student really understands their own role within that and how one thing can help something else. 

And when I was growing up, for sure that was not really a subject anybody approached. It was just, you know, your... You learn music, and and then you finish that, and you went somewhere else, and nobody really cared how great your music lesson was. Nobody said, hey, are there any learning outcomes? Are there any, what's your assessment criteria?

All of those words, they're now thrown around, and you have to you know, provide them, of course, in, in the curriculum, and then show and demonstrate that they're relevant, that they're age appropriate, they're relevant to the subject. Those things that didn't exist back then. But what existed was that I could freely choose what I was drawn to. 

And then I could ask, luckily, those questions to people around me and say, look, I really love Guns N Roses. Now I need to learn the solo to Knocking on Heaven's Door or to November Rain. And and then my dad or somebody would sit down with me and then do what I love doing.  And I think that was absolutely amazing because it got me hooked. 

So even though I realized later that that approach left me with loads of gaps,  because there was no continuity, there was no minimum standard I had to get through in order to go to the next level. There was no gatekeeper  for lack of a better word that would say,  you have to stop here for a moment and make sure you carry with you all the different bits of knowledge that are related.

Yes, filling in the gaps. Yeah, filling in the gaps. I don't, I don't think I had that at all. So and now, you know, coming to the other side of it, being, studying myself, having made up for some of those losses, some of them I think they're just there, those gaps are just there, and I, I learned to you know, either make them my strengths in a way by kind of focusing on them particularly, or knowing that that's something I have to go stay away from, that's not my expertise. 

And now being on the education side in 2023,  strangely enough, I think we overemphasize on  key performance indicators really in children. Like you would expect a manager in a high performance, a high paid job.  And we under emphasize sometimes on the individual needs of the children, individual learning speed, the individual tastes.

Children have tastes. I think we very often forget that  our children have a very distinct opinion about what they like and what they don't like. Any parents, you know, I mean, myself being a parent of two young children, they have a very clear understanding. I remember I wrote a beautiful piece of music for my daughter. 

She's called Grace, and the song is called Dancing with Grace. And it's not even a song, it's a, it's a instrumental piece. And I was very proudly presenting this to her. She hated it. It  was, it was very funny. You know, I played it with all the emotions I could possibly put in there, and thinking, you know, obviously if I like it, you know, and if I put that much into it, she must like it.

She went and had it.  It's not, no, no good. I like more energetic stuff. Okay. But that's, that's, we, we underestimate that.  So, so what would you say then as a teacher in 2023, knowing that the children have got all their own individual tastes, knowing that they've got so much technology available to them and the kind of blended learning approach that you said,  what is the best way to be that gatekeeper as a music teacher?

 How can we cater for every child and how can we ensure that whilst they have every resource in the world available to them on the internet, we're making sure that they only have the ones that they're ready for, and we're making sure that they, on one hand have free choice to learn what they want to learn, on the other hand, I'm not missing out key pieces of knowledge or, or technique, et cetera.

That's kind of what I see as a big challenge for teachers in 2023. What are your thoughts on that?  I couldn't agree more. I mean, you hit the nail on the head that with all the information available, it's two things happen. One of them is it's an overwhelming amount. So sometimes the overwhelming amount stops us from doing anything at all because the task is too big. 

You're looking at all the things around and a student or a young student would look at this and go, If I need to know all of this that's out there, all of those different videos, I'm never going to get there. Secondly, very often those videos are an isolated incident in music. They show you to do something physical. 

And they're missing out all the other parts that are surrounding the learning. And then thirdly, we often think that  It's, it's only when  we succeed in something, we get something in the end, we've sort of managed this.  So I think the challenges as a teacher right now in 2023 are to install an actual love for making music.

So it's made music for the sake of making music.  I think  we should, should more emphasize, and some teachers are excellent at this, on it. Students early on creating their own music and exploring music without worrying about having a specific end goal.  Without you have to have in three weeks from now this piece of music learned, otherwise you are a failure in this.

Otherwise you've not succeeded. Look your friend over there got the sticker, you didn't. All of this, I think this is a, it actually reinforces a negative spiral.  Absolutely. Something I spoke about in a previous episode is pretty much what you just touched on there. So if we are kind of encouraging achievement and talent rather than measuring effort, that can have a negative effect at the early stages in a child's development. So if we're encouraging and we're So pleased and proud of a child for the amount of effort they've put in compared to trying to praise them based on that something they did or did not achieve.

From a child's perspective, it can be quite difficult to change what you achieved, but it's quite easy to change the amount of effort that you put into it. So along the same lines, I completely agree, you know, igniting that spark of enjoyment and encouraging the effort and exploration of music is really what a teacher should be doing.

compared to what some teachers do, and I totally understand why they would do it, but what some teachers do is have goals, and it's like, okay, we must achieve grade one by this time, we must achieve grade two by this time, because you get measured goals and they feel like they've achieved something. But then, if they haven't achieved it in that time, or they didn't quite get the percentage grade, you know, numerical value about how good they are at the guitar, you know, it's not always a  a positive experience for a child.

Of course, for some children it is, they love to have that gold and that really spurs them on, but  I think it's important that we  explore music with the children, have them enjoy the music, and really the goal of music is not the achievement, not at this early stage, the goal of music is the music itself.

I think I completely agree with what you said then, it's something really important. So, as a parent who's listening,  to this podcast and they perhaps have children learning music. Their children are into all different types of music. Have you got any tips for them as to how they could support their children knowing that they live in a world where there's so many resources  we know about the difficulties as we've just discussed.

How can they understand the bigger picture of a journey that a child is going to go through whilst learning an instrument?  So,  as a parent myself, One of the main things I learned is that the children want to come to me to show me what they're good at. They don't want to hear from me what they're bad at.

So as a parent to, to double teach  the children I think it creates a It creates a descendant towards the towards what they do, and they associate that in the end with music or with making music. And it creates just another point of friction.  There's a, it's a very interesting  factor. Read  that  90% of all young sports people  get put off from continuing in their sport on the journey with their parents.  to the, to the game, to the game, and coming back home. It's that, that initial sort of, you need to do this, you need to focus on this.

Don't be like this. Listen to your coach. And they always feel they're letting somebody down. And on the way home, why did you do this? There you should have passed the ball. Why did you not? And this idea of it, you should be doing this more, this more. It becomes constant pressure and there's no letting off. 

anywhere for the children to let off just steam and enjoy the environment they're in. Enjoy, just as we say, making music for the sake of making music.  I think this is the number one. So as a parent, don't double teach. That is a brilliant tip. Don't double teach. And the second thing is,  do not fall into the trap of continually asking your teacher, which tune has my son learned now, or my daughter learned now?

Why can't they not yet play something? We can showcase on Christmas for the rest of the family. Not every child will become a wonderful performer by the end of it. Nor is that the goal of making music. Art  is something bigger and making music is something bigger for the development of your child.  And we can see this in our children very strongly.

The idea of developing to do something in rhythm.  is good for absolutely anything you do in life. If you speak rhythmically,  if you move in a fluid motion with your body, so everything is in rhythm with itself,  if you understand how harmony and how melody works, so how you're blazing your voice, as well as how well your ears are developed.

When your ears are detailed, developed, you're better in languages, you will be better in learning your own language, English.  In that case, not in my case, but  in most other cases,  you will be able to hear more detailed everything everybody says, so you need less amount of time listening to something. You also learn how to memorize large chunks of information, and you also develop your fine motor skills on your instruments, through your instruments, in your body, and be in touch and in tune with all of those different things all at once. 

That's an incredible  sensitory learning curve you're going through, and you may never ever be able to play a full piece  so blessedly that somebody might want to pay an entrance ticket for, but the skills are there nevertheless, and they're transferable skills. It's the same with everything, they're all linked, I'm not saying that it's more important than math or English, it is all important together, and that makes a one.

One human being, really a whole time human being. Yeah,  I would totally understand why a parent would think, you know, that I've been having lessons for X amount of time. Why are they not yet at grade X?  And exactly as you said, that's not necessarily the point.

Now, as they get older,  maybe someone's a teenager, they've been learning for a few years now, and they really want to push themselves, and they want to achieve a certain goal. In line with their GCSE music or something, then that's a bit different. But what you were talking about there, you know, especially with younger children, I completely agree.



So one of the things we've done this week at Grooveline is we've been doing some EYFS music. So just 20 minute sessions, 10 children at a time all ages four and five inside a primary school. And at the end of the 20 minutes, the children had a fantastic time. They'd been learning just basic ideas about high and low, loud and quiet, fast and slow.

Just really simple concepts that will prepare them when we get to year one and we learn in a bit more advanced music. They've got those basic things. It's not so explicit as, let's clap in time, my child needs to be able to clap in time. It's not necessarily that. It's literally, you could just move in time.

Or, you know, that you're dancing and you don't realise you're learning about rhythm. And, , all of those things are so important, as you said, for coordination.  It might not manifest itself in a fantastic piano performance at the end of year concert that, you know, everyone's going to be in tears.

It may do, and that's brilliant too. But that's not for every child. But what is for every child is the whole development. I completely agree. And one other thing that I  would add to that is about echoic memory as well. So memory based on sounds. So for example, if I have to memorize a number that I've read, , I wouldn't be able to do that by looking at it.

But if I read it out loud and said it, I could recall the sound of those numbers, and I'd be able to write it down a few minutes later. And that's linked to learning music. Likewise, you touched on languages. You know, there's a lot of studies to say that musicians can learn languages easier than non musicians learning new languages, even later in life.

So I know your children are bi or tri lingual even,  which is awesome. And they've learned that at an early age, probably when it's the easiest to learn a new language.  I don't know, did you learn English as a child or was that as an adult? So as an adult it's a bit trickier for you, wasn't it? And I learned Spanish as a 20 year old as well, you know, it's quite tricky but I think both of us would have benefited from the music that we'd learned as a child and we didn't even realize it and we never planned that that was what it was going to be and our parents would have been happy that we learned a new language.

They probably never would have thought, I'm glad I paid for those guitar lessons so that Will could learn Spanish. You know, but actually it all links up, doesn't it? Yes, wonderful. I mean, there's so much in there from what you just said. That's so,  so true.  The idea of the transferable skill, one way or another is really important.

And, and yes, you know, you're thinking  sometimes, you know, okay, this is maybe not for my child, so I'll stop the music lessons. thE same way then, you know, you might watch your child playing football and you're thinking actually, they're not very good at football, let's stop it because all they're getting is a negative impact on their, on their confidence because they can see for themselves  that they might be not succeeding or they might be not the main goal scorer yet and that's kind of how we measure success.

And then we miss the fact that they're actually learning social skills there. We miss the fact that they're actually doing physically something where they're getting in tune with their body and they're learning about actually making themselves physically strong. They're also learning about being in action with rules.

Yeah, discipline. Yeah, discipline, absolutely. Self control, being there for a team.  Just turning up, you know, never mind if you're the strongest striker, no, but you dare, you know, you're doing this and every week and you might feel a bit rubbish, but you're getting up and you're going to put your boots on and you go out and you support your team.

And and so we sometimes forget there's more to it than the actual skill because we seem to have gotten so  obsessed  with measuring.  Everything needs to be measured. You know, you look at Ofsted  where you're looking at a body that's in charge of assessing schools performances. 

And it uses extremely rigid methods combined with  just not fit for purpose, often measurement methods.  And then creating a number, creating a figure that's a grading of good, bad, outstanding. And that's then a measurement for everything of that school. You get that one word in the front and that measures the entire school.

It's unlikely that a school is outstanding in absolutely every single area. The same way it's unlikely that a school is inadequate in absolutely every single area. So it's so, the drainage of it is so broad. And it's just there, not a stamp, not a soundbite. And it so fits within our now society very much.

And I don't think children work like this. Children are very finely tuned. And they are extremely sensitive and reactive to how we react to what they do. And if they get a sticker one week and you don't give them a sticker the next week, you are breaking their spirit in a way. And in the end, it's about the sticker.

It's not about the activity. And We got into this habit now of kind of just going, okay, never mind us showing the enjoyment because we are now this sort of driven society where we go, no, you need to be at a certain standard and we need to certify this. And then we have bodies that are certified at a very young age.

They need to give the certificate. That's their business.  And and, and I think that we have a little work to do there because we've got now this technology where we can do better than ever. But somehow that got us into a hang on a second. We can now also measure every single bit of activity, we can put a grade onto it, and then we can feed that back, and then we can go and improve on this. 

And that's okay when you are, as you quite rightly say, a teenager, and you are thinking, hang on, I might want to do this for the rest of my life. Now you need to have a coach in your corner that goes, okay, how do I get you to that world class level? So you can not just enjoy it, but also have the success you want to have with it.

But that's two different things. Yeah.  So I think, I think to summarize that point, I would say from a parent point of view, but also from a teacher point of view, it's important to remember the bigger picture and remember the whole purpose of why we're doing music, not just necessarily this particular piece of music, this particular song that we're studying right now, and why can't my child do it at full speed?

Why are they still putting the backing track at 0. 75 speed? You know, those kind of measurements, they're not necessarily. They are helpful as a learning tool, but they're not necessarily helpful as a way of determining how successful an education is. One more thing I'd love to touch on, Pete, is I know this is something , you're in the world of and that is gamification of learning.

I was wondering if you could talk about that a little bit, and in particular, thinking about how that relates to instrumental lessons.  Okay, yeah, absolutely.  So with Roth Academy, we are moving more and more into being a content provider for different levels of learners. So we have a top end outfit where we're looking at.

providing music education for people who just want to stay in continuous learning cycles. So they're professionals and they need to hear a different voice to their own voice sometimes in order to keep their own mind engaged. And we have this, this interesting system where we're putting a professional player in front of another professional player.

So it's not so much a matter of student and teacher, it's a matter of, of thought exchange. And that's sort of the top end, and I think this has always been really good. There, what you need is just really high class content, really clean, really clear cut, with very little support. As soon as you go to the other end, and that's the early learning years, as you had some experience with what you were saying earlier, with Groovline, and You go to Key Stage 1 and 2,  Primary School Learning.

I think the importance of all of this is that a child actively wants to go there themselves. So for me, rather than giving them a sticker afterwards, and so it's like sort of the stick and the carrot approach. So you say you do this really tricky exercise, and then I'm going to go give you something afterwards.

Rather than doing this, I would like to think that there must be a framework. Under which the student in itself actually enjoys the activity, i. e. gamifying is one of those ways of doing it. So for example having a game, I used to play this with my children, which we called the perfect pitch game.  And we just put a bowl of, a bowl of sweets  in the middle of the table. 

Maybe some Smarties in it or something.  And we had a, a tuner lying in the middle of the table. And in order to get into the game, you had to sing a C.

Nice. And that was as simple as that. So then you had the numbers one to five, and that would mark the first five notes of the C major scale. And then somebody would, who's just sung the C, it's their, their turn,  they would say, would nominate, Okay, daddy. Can you sing two, four, and five? So I had to sing the notes D, the notes F, and G.

And you can see it on the tune out, but you can see it. And you don't, you miss it, and you get a bit of abuse from your children. And they get a suite.  And that's, and that's how it worked. So, with that, they enjoyed it. So many times, they went in the car, we did this quite a lot. Going, oh can we play the perfect pitch game?

And we did a similar thing with a clapping game when we walk.  where we, where we try to clap when our feet go down on the floor.  So we clap at the same time. So we're in rhythm with everything. Then we clap when they're not going on the floor. So in between, which would be in rhythmic language for a professional, that would be the offbeats. 

But for a child, by the time you explain offbeats, it's a long way. But because we naturally walk in rhythm, we don't just fall over, right? We don't walk a bit faster, a bit slower all the time. We have a natural flow to walking. And you have a sound.  You have your sound, and you can go with it. Da, da, da, da, ga, ga, ga, ga, da, da, da. 

And you play that game for six months, every now and then. You might say, oh, we're now putting numbers to this. Two, three, four. Now we only make a sound on number four.  Four,  four.  And so you now learn how to even interact with a specific rhythm inside a specific measurement. And those are things kids love.

And we try to put this into the blended learning approach, making videos that encourage those type of games. You're doing something similar, I know this, I always admire this, you do this with the the. Boom whackers, and you understand that idea.

It's more about whacking them, than actually them thinking I want to make the pitch of D or E or F. But the outcome nevertheless is you make music while you're enjoying it. There's a rhythm, there's a sound, and there's an action to it, a physical thing you do. That's what you do when you make music, it's those three elements.

Absolutely. I think as well, you know, the first game was a very... High level game that perhaps only someone like yourself could play with their children sing in a seat You know without any kind of note reference That's something that requires musical ability from the parent as well True and if the people listening can do that fantastic, please do it But what I like is then the second idea doesn't really require any musical Knowledge or ability to play that walking game and the rhythm games.

I think that's really fantastic and you know That obviously was what kind of inspired you to think about gamification And now I love the way that Roth Academy is going to be bringing that to younger children as well. There's one thing as well that you said that I wanted to kind of agree with, and it reminded me of a quote which I've got in front of me. 

Which is what you mentioned about rewarding with a sticker. And it's like, okay, we're going to do a technical exercise for 10 minutes. If you do it for 10 minutes, then you get a sticker. What that actually does is make the sticker the good thing, and the guitar, or the piano, or whatever instrument, the chore.

And that's not the way to do it really, what you want to do is make the thing itself fun, and gamification is one way that that can be successful. I've got a a quote here, so it's from a book called Why We Teach Piano, and the quote says, Rewarding them, so the children, with playtime or video games afterwards just reinforces the notion that playing piano is not fun, and video games are fun.

 I think... It's important that we make the music fun, and that's the responsibility of everyone. That's the responsibility of the teacher, the parent, the person who's creating the content,  and that is something that we're going to be able to continue to do with the children.

Now when they get older, and they've been enjoying music for so long, for many years, and now they're a teenager, now they are willing to sit there for 15 minutes and work really hard on something that's quite technically difficult. And they're willing to do it because they love their instrument now.

When they're very young, what we need to do is make them love their instrument in the first place so that later on we can kind of adapt and help them improve along the way. So, Pete, just to finish off today, if people are interested to find out more about you, about Roth Academy, the work you're doing or any new updates with any of your projects, how can people find out more?

So, mainly on the RothAcademy. co. uk, that's our main home.  So we just recently started revamping our business, our business model into early learning years content provision and the Key Stage 1, Key Stage 2, so we're very involved in this.

 We're heavily invested  in getting as many children during primary school into having at least a debut grade. And actually one of our philosophies in our company is that every child should have a debut grade during primary school. And 

I believe this will create all sorts of positive impacts. For teachers. for schools, for the environments they're living in, for their social interaction, for skills for enjoyment. I think music lessons should be something students really look forward to at school. They should be the fun ones, like they look forward to their P.

E. lessons and they look forward to the, you know, to the lesser strict let's say lesser academic subjects. It's a doing thing. It's something you're supposed to do with other people. As you quite rightly said when you're a teenager later. It's something else happens. You, you may have a drive from within yourself that you want to do this and you lock yourself in your room listening far too loud to the music you, you absolutely deeply love.

And something happens within you there, a connection where a teacher becomes something else then for you. It becomes a facilitator for your own wishes and wants which you can express at that stage. When you're seven, eight years old.  That expression is not yet articulated enough, really, to be  so close to what you really want.

That it is, that can be your actual anchor within that. It's, you still need teachers, you need people that are  really having an insight into what that might be. And this is what we are doing with our content creation. We're trying to have that insight. Helping, giving loads and loads of different types of content for the same type of subject in order to reach as many different learning styles.

We're trying to reach as many different environments. Environments that may not have access to music instruments. Environments that might not be as privileged as some. Somehow my kids very much are overprivileged when it comes down to music instruments because they're all over the house. But that's a rarity, you know, we appreciate this.

But it's yeah, that's that's kind of where we go on with it. That's brilliant and a fantastic mission, of course, which I completely support and I'm really excited to continue to see how Roth Academy and Grooveline can work together. I think for parents listening at home, hopefully this has been really helpful for them.

I think in particular, For a parent it can be difficult to see the big picture and conversations such as this is going to be really helpful for them to understand Music education how it works And you know listen to someone like yourself with so much experience as to how it used to work how it works now The way it's changing and for a parent to understand that is going to really help them to support their child So thank you so much Pete for the conversation today, and I look forward to speaking to you again soon.

It's been my pleasure Well, thank you so much for having me 

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